Curse

Series · Jul 07, 2007, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Because of people who "abused" shouts, spamming them continuously, many player-favorite shouts (such as INCOMING!, which will be my example for today). Every skill-type in Guild Wars has a balancing agent.

Enchantments can be stripped.

Hexes can be removed.

Spirits can be killed.

Spells can be interrupted.

Attacks can miss.

What was the balance of a shout/chant? The recharge time. Yes, shouts and chants are extremely effective- but with the price of a short duration. For example, old incoming would give you a 50% damage reduction 1/5 of the time. While powerful, by timing spikes and such outside of the duration, one could win even with an incoming paragon on the other team.

But the problem is... what happens when the balancing agent is REMOVED from the game? Say, for example, hexes must last their entire duration. They cannot be removed. The hex metagame would go through the roof! The balancing agent has been removed, and now hexes are Godlike. I could go on and on about this, but I think you get the idea.

Here's the problem with shouts and chants. The main balancing agent CAN be removed by the players at will. I am talking about Incoming! chaining, for this example.

Incoming was relatively balanced at a 4 second duration. However...

Incoming affects the ENTIRE party, yourself included.

By using a second incoming, it is as if the duration of incoming just DOUBLED! Sure, at the price of an elite slot, but for something as broken as that, who needs an elite slot?

So as a result, Anet pulled out the hammer and smashed shouts and chants over the head until they lay there dead. This was effective, as chaining Incoming to get 8 seconds with 2 players now would take THREE players to get 9 seconds. But what about people who want to use the skill... well, the way it was supposed to be? They got screwed over by the fact that anet used the hammer to annihilate powerful shouts and chants.

But, in my opinion, there is a much better way. How? Make the balancing agent untamperable. How do you do this? Let me illustrate with Incoming!.

[Old] Incoming!
For 1...4 seconds, all party members within earshot take 50% less damage.
10E 20R

Now watch my idea for how shouts should be handled:

[My] Incoming!
For 20 seconds, all party members have incoming. For the first [1...4] seconds incoming is on each party member, they take 50% less damage.
10E 20R

Now take a look at what I did. Incoming now "lasts" as long as it's recharge (which would be applied to all shouts in my idea). However, the EFFECT only lasts for 1... 4 seconds- the FIRST 1... 4 seconds. So if after that 1... 4 seconds, another paragon casted incoming, it would increase the duration... but this doesn't matter, as once the 1... 4 seconds are up, incoming does NOTHING, and chaining it like that would just increase the time it does nothing for.

Also, for skills that say "Under the effect of a shout or chant", Incoming would only effect that for the 1... 4 seconds because after that, they are no longer under the "effect" of it. It is still on them, however, to prevent it being up for longer than the developers intended.

This fix is a creative way to make it impossible to chain shouts and chants, making them a lot more balanced and more importantly not abusable. Even if this is decided to not be a good idea, I am sure that by revising the shout mechanics, they can become much more balanced...

Silly Warrior · Jul 07, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Thats great...

Can a moderator put this in Campfire-Paragons?

DarkNecrid · Jul 07, 2007, 10:48 PM // 22:48

It wouldn't fix anything, because when another person uses a shout, it gets reapplied, so the 4 seconds would renew.

It would be the exact same.

EDIT: Actually this would only benefit the people who use skills such as WHEN UNDER THE EFFECTS OF A SHOUT OR CHANT.

Series · Jul 07, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

It wouldn't fix anything, because when another person uses a shout, it gets reapplied, so the 4 seconds would renew.

It would be the exact same.

EDIT: Actually this would only benefit the people who use skills such as WHEN UNDER THE EFFECTS OF A SHOUT OR CHANT.

Please read OP before commenting.

onerabbit · Jul 07, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

*Shut Your Mouth, fool*

Skill. Ends all shouts in the area.

better?

VitisVinifera · Jul 07, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

you need to add this to the end if the thread title: "In PvP"

because in PvE, all the nerfraping Paragons have taken because of PvP balancing has made them as valuable as minipets (ok slight exaggeration).

that, or move this to the pvp section, because this is a one-sided issue

Series · Jul 07, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by VitisVinifera

you need to add this to the end if the thread title: "In PvP"

because in PvE, all the nerfraping Paragons have taken because of PvP balancing has made them as valuable as minipets (ok slight exaggeration).

that, or move this to the pvp section, because this is a one-sided issue

I was talking about in PvP, however this shouldn't be in the PvP section as it would have a huge impact on both PvE and PvP paragons, for the better I believe.

Alex Morningstar · Jul 07, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

There are ways to stop shouts before they happen... energy denial or andrenaline denial.

I'd rather people be creative and work around the way it is now then to have the mechanic made potentionally worse in an attempt to fix it, but that's just me.

DarkNecrid is right tho, your idea would mess with the way shouts get reapplied and possibily screw things up for the Paragon in the long run, or cause them to have to get a lot of their skills retooled just for shouts (which can be avoided like I stated above). If shouts didn't get reappled, that would screw with Echos, for example.

Shout-Chaining Paragons are like Touch Rangers, annoying but can be countered if one took the effort.

darkknightkain · Jul 07, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Chants can be interrupted

And both Shouts and Chants can be AoE shuted down... btw, you don't even need to use any elites to do that

I've yet to see anything that is even remotely this powerful (elite or not elite) when targeting any other professions.

Where is the skill that can area-wide shutdown the entire healing+protection prayers + half of divine favour all at the same time?

pnumm · Jul 07, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

I suggest a more powerful spirit of roaring winds. Maybe add an additional recharge to shouts and chants as well, for non-spirit creatures within it's range.

Antheus · Jul 07, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

because in PvE, all the nerfraping Paragons have taken because of PvP balancing has made them as valuable as minipets (ok slight exaggeration).

Not quite, minipets can be sold.

Omniclasm · Jul 07, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Instead of relying on the recharge, why not just nerf the effect of shouts, but make them more maintainable.

[Old] Incoming!
For 1...4 seconds, all party members within earshot take 50% less damage.
10E 20R

Now watch my idea for how shouts should be handled:

[My] Incoming!
For 5 seconds, all party members within earshot take 5...25% less damage.
10E 10R

Stacking 8 of them in a team would not help any past the second one, and having Incoming! on you constantly would not give you as much "invincibility" as it used to.

Curse You · Jul 08, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Instead of relying on the recharge, why not just nerf the effect of shouts, but make them more maintainable.

[Old] Incoming!
For 1...4 seconds, all party members within earshot take 50% less damage.
10E 20R

Now watch my idea for how shouts should be handled:

[My] Incoming!
For 5 seconds, all party members within earshot take 5...25% less damage.
10E 10R

Stacking 8 of them in a team would not help any past the second one, and having Incoming! on you constantly would not give you as much "invincibility" as it used to.

Way to go, it's [wiki]"They're on Fire!"[/wiki] but elite and without them having to be on fire...

Seriously, do any of you people get how the game works?

The first idea wouldn't work, since the effect would renew (just like any other shout) when it's reused. Add to that the fact that you would be under the "effect" of a shout for the whole 20 seconds.

To be under the effect of a shout, it has to on your Effects Monitor. From what you're saying, it would be on your Effects Monitor, just not doing anything.

And if you think, "They could change that" then why don't you try reprogramming it. They have a system that works, and I really doubt they're going to risk messing it up just because someone wants a single skill to be weaker.

Frankly though, I don't see why people think shouts are so overpowered. There are many ways to counter the use of shouts.

"Incoming!" costs 10 energy. The max a Paragon can get from Leadership is 8 energy. They loose 2 energy with each use of the skill.

Now, how do they make up for the energy lost? They use adrenaline shouts.

Adrenaline... that's not got any counters does it? Oh wait...
[skill]Soothing Images[/skill][skill]Soothing[/skill]
or even
[skill]Sympathetic Visage[/skill][skill]Ancestor's Visage[/skill]

TGgold · Jul 08, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

It really is a shame that creating an entire class around a basis that isn't supported ruined them.

Paragons face the fact there is no *widespread* removal of shouts and chants. Sure, interruption, etc counters them, but once again, because a counter exists doesn't mean it isn't broken.

I would like to see this attatched to shouts or chants, since the mechanic exists elsewhere in the game.

Whenever a shout ends, the same shout is disabled for all other party members for [12 seconds - (Leadership/2)] if their shout is not recharging .

A similar mechanic functions for Xinrae's Weapon. It would prevent the "invinci-chain" in Incomings! while not totally destroying the reapplication process.

Let's look at incoming under this. At 16 Leadership, we could let incoming reach 5 seconds with a 20 second recharge. Then there would be at *least* a 4 second downtime before somebody else could use it again. That provides plenty of time to spike down a target, apply pressure, etc. It would also discourage bringing SO many people with the same Shout.
If two people brought it, it would be able to be chained (with ia meaning under incoming from the first para, ib maning incoming from the second para, and n meaning without incoming) 5ia, 4n, 5ib, 6n, 5ia, 4n, 5ib, 6n.....
This means that with two paras it could be maintained half of the time. (Makes sense, two paras, it's like halfing the recharge...)

Now, look at 3 paras: 5ia, 4n, 5ib, 4n, 5ic, 4n(since para a would have recharged before para c's incoming ended, meaning his shout would be disabled for 4 seconds...) 5ia, 4n(since para b would have recharged before para a's shout ended again, meaning there's a recharge....)5ib, 4n (there's a pattern here....)

Alright, you get the gist. Now, if you have three para's running incoming, it can be maintained for 15/27 seconds. In fact, with more than 3 paras, it would still only be maintained for this same amount of time. Alright, so with 3 or more paras, Incoming could be maintained for 50/90 seconds. In fact, with only 2 paras running incoming, it could be active for 45/89 seconds. One para could maintain the skill for only 20/80 seconds. (if we went more...it would be 22.5/90) So in turn, doubling up on Paragon's Double the effect, in reason, but adding any more is almost pointless. And any past 3 is COMPLETE overlap.

Of course, running paras at say, 12 leadership would require more paras to complete a "chain", but there is still ample spike windows open, and there is NEVER an invinci-chain.

From a "roleplaying standpoint" Perhaps it can be rationalized in the Shout being the order, it wouldn't make sense for another person to give the same order in short succession. The better the leader, though, the more respect they control, the more specific the order, the the more clean the execution is by their lackies.

How does this sound to everyone else?

Sk8tborderx · Jul 08, 2007, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

The first idea wouldn't work, since the effect would renew (just like any other shout) when it's reused. Add to that the fact that you would be under the "effect" of a shout for the whole 20 seconds.

They could give it the spirit bond treatment, which is what he is proposing.

They changed spirit bond so it has to end on before you recast or you will not gain the benefits from it.

Quote:

Adrenaline... that's not got any counters does it? Oh wait...
[skill]Soothing Images[/skill][skill]Soothing[/skill]
or even
[skill]Sympathetic Visage[/skill][skill]Ancestor's Visage[/skill]

Please provide a bar that uses soothing images and is not gimped in any way.

The visages also only work for melee attacks, so how does that stop adrenaline gain from paragons?

Div · Jul 08, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I won't mention names, but anyone that posts counters to shouts are retards. If you don't understand why, then learn to play first.

It's just like if there was a skill that takes 25 energy and 15 adrenaline that instakills with a 1 second cast, you can still argue that e-denial, a-denial, or interrupts can stop it. But just because there are a lot of counters doesn't mean it's not broken.

As for its effects on PvE, I think with this factor added in (kinda like spirit bond where reapplying doesn't renew the hit count), Anet can more safely buff some of the shouts back up again. The OP actually raises a good suggestion and could make paragons more valuable and wanted as a PvE class overall. Some people need to be less retarded and read the OP's post before commenting and blaming everything on PvP. This isn't a thread to nerf paragons...this is made to help balance them in PvP so that they can also be effective in PvE.

Series · Jul 08, 2007, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I won't mention names, but anyone that posts counters to shouts are retards. If you don't understand why, then learn to play first.

It's just like if there was a skill that takes 25 energy and 15 adrenaline that instakills with a 1 second cast, you can still argue that e-denial, a-denial, or interrupts can stop it. But just because there are a lot of counters doesn't mean it's not broken.

As for its effects on PvE, I think with this factor added in (kinda like spirit bond where reapplying doesn't renew the hit count), Anet can more safely buff some of the shouts back up again. The OP actually raises a good suggestion and could make paragons more valuable and wanted as a PvE class overall. Some people need to be less retarded and read the OP's post before commenting and blaming everything on PvP. This isn't a thread to nerf paragons...this is made to help balance them in PvP so that they can also be effective in PvE.

Good post... I don't think that anybody who bashed my post or dismissed it as a "nerf" to paragons grasped what I was talking about at all.

As a side note...

My main character in PvE is a Paragon.

My second-most used profession in PvP is Paragon.

I have used builds that incorporated 90% of the Paragon skills (some just aren't worth being on your bar).

I enjoy the Paragon more than any other profession and know how it plays.

I simply recognized that the shout mechanic is EASILY exploitable and that the best way to fix this would be to remove the exploit so Anet doesn't have to hammer shouts to the ground!

Also, any chance a mod can move this to Sardelec? Looking back, my post was basically a suggestion.

frojack · Jul 08, 2007, 12:51 PM // 12:51

This is actually a fantastic idea. The nice thing about it is the remaining 'dead' shout/chant does not need to last the entire recharge. It could quite easily be half that so Chant/shout stacking could still be viable but vastly more controllable.
Using your example of Incoming. It could be up for 10 seconds on a 20 second recharge but only active for 4 seconds (could have similar graphics to how adrenaline works). Not saying this is balanced but it's an example of how you've created control handles.
Also the shouts/chants that are more balanced as they are could retain their current functionality, so you don't screw up Beastmastery or Warrior shouts.

A little though really does a long way ^_^.

Orphan Anthem · Jul 08, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

now you can interupt shouts like any other skill so now SHOUTS ARE NO LONGER OVERPOWERED

Series · Jul 08, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

This is actually a fantastic idea. The nice thing about it is the remaining 'dead' shout/chant does not need to last the entire recharge. It could quite easily be half that so Chant/shout stacking could still be viable but vastly more controllable.
Using your example of Incoming. It could be up for 10 seconds on a 20 second recharge but only active for 4 seconds (could have similar graphics to how adrenaline works). Not saying this is balanced but it's an example of how you've created control handles.
Also the shouts/chants that are more balanced as they are could retain their current functionality, so you don't screw up Beastmastery or Warrior shouts.

A little though really does a long way ^_^.

Yes that is true, beast mastery and warrior shouts would need to be looked at as well as they shouldn't be ruined because of Paragon shouts, however! Beast mastery shouts seem to, if I recall correctly, only effect your OWN pet. My idea is more for party-wide shouts, not single target shouts, as I think party wide shouts are where the imbalance comes from... I don't think chaining pet shouts would really be imbalanced at all

or possible for that matter. I DO, however, like your idea that the shouts can be "dead" for time less than the recharge so that chaining is still possible, just capped off.

As for warrior shouts, lets look at the warrior within earshot shouts-

Watch Yourself- no recharge, adrenaline based, so it wouldn't be affected
Shields Up- With it's short duration, inability to chain would affect it in theory...
Retreat- May be affected by change, like Shields up
Charge- Why would you want to chain this (or use it)? ha

So really only 4 non-paragon skills may be affected. Worth it for the sake of balance? I think so

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

now you can interupt shouts like any other skill so now SHOUTS ARE NO LONGER OVERPOWERED

Don't you love when people who don't have the faintest clue on what they are talking about try coming in and getting all tough with ya?